The High Cost of Kinship: Fentanyl, 401Ks- a Grandmother's Survival Story

Tempo: 120.0

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What happens when the birthday party of your dreams turns into a high-stakes hazmat cleanup? Imagine planning your grandson's third birthday at 6 p.m. only to lose your daughter, their mother, to a fentanyl overdose by 7:30 a.m. the next morning. Today's guest Laurel Lexner didn't just lose one child. She lost two. But in the wake of a tragedy that would level most people, she and her husband stepped into the second cradle to build a sanctuary for their grandson. We're discussing the administrative weight of kinship care, the shame of the failure narrative, and how to survive when you have to drain your retirement funds just to keep your home. Welcome to Grandparents Raising Grandchildren, Nurturing Through Adversity. In this podcast, we will delve deep into the challenges and triumphs of grandparents raising grandchildren. As we navigate the complexities of legal, financial, and emotional support, I invite you to join us on a journey of exploring thoughts, feelings, and beliefs surrounding this growing segment of our society. Drawing from real stories and expert advice, we will explore the nuances of child rearing for children who have experienced trauma and offer valuable resources to guide you through the intricate journey of kinship care. We'll discuss how we can change the course of history by rewriting our grandchildren's future, all within a supportive community that understands the unique joys and struggles. This podcast was made especially for you. Welcome to a community where your voice is heard, your experiences are valued, and your journey is honored. I have to be honest with you. This interview hit close to home. Like Laurel, I've looked in the mirror and asked, where did I go wrong as a mother? We often carry this failure narrative as if it's a performance review we failed. But as Laurel beautifully points out, addiction doesn't care if you're rich, poor, or raised in a Christian household. It hits the motherboard of the family. During this recording, you'll hear my own grandsons interrupting, door slamming, and me calling for backup. That's the reality of the invisible CEO. We are cleaning up the mess, managing the 401k drain, and still finding a way to love through grief. Laurel, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Hi, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

It's so nice talking to another mom. The connection in the community that we create is something that we all need to have. Another sister out there that's has uh many of the same griefs, many of the same confusions.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

I totally agree.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

I know that in some of the emails that we've exchanged, you describe yourself as an overthinker. Oh yes. I can relate to that. We call that high-level infrastructure planning.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

I like that.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

I want to share with other people what brought you to now be raising your grandson. You were planning a birthday party for him one night. Yes. And it was his third birthday. Yes. And the next morning your whole world changed forever. Yes, it did. You lost your daughter to fentanyl first.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

And then you lost a son.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Actually lost a son the year before, and then my daughter came after him. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Your anger with God must have been immense at that point.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

It in a sense it was, but I was also honestly felt more of a failure as a mother. I was angry at God for letting it happen, but then I was also disappointed in myself. I felt like I had failed as a mother. Even though deep inside I knew that wasn't true because I knew I had been a good mother. They both had told me how much they loved me, how you know how how much they didn't want to be away from me, you know, just different things like that. But um I still felt like a failure. That's so hard.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

I know that one of my greatest desires in life was to be a mother. Yes. And I too lost a son. When when we're honest with ourselves and we get in touch with these emotions that come up, and so many do all the time. Oh yes. We go back and reflect upon our roles as mothers and wonder where we went wrong. Yes. Right? Mm-hmm. Have you been able to identify that voice of GMA Failure as a mother and where that came from?

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Um, I eventually just I I don't even know how, but eventually I just realized that hey, this is not true because I knew how I raised my kids. I knew I had done a good job.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

And you were thinking about what other people might think.

Loss, Overthinking, and Judgment

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Oh, yes, that too. You know, I absolutely, absolutely. You know, uh, you know, you you you go through taking off work. Oh, why were you gone so long? Well, my son died. How did he die? From a fentanyl overdose. Then again, your daughter died. Oh, what from an overdose, you know? And even though they don't say it, in my brain, especially being an overthinker, is like, oh, I know what they're thinking, you know, is that I did not raise them correctly. But it doesn't matter how that child was raised. I mean, maybe it does in a sense. It could be could have been worse. Um, but addiction can hit any family. It doesn't matter if you're rich, if you're poor, if you raise them in a Christian household, or if you raise them in the dirt, it doesn't matter. It can hit anyone.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

And addiction, we can have addictions from shopping, we can have addictions to food. And if you have an addiction to a serious drug like fentanyl, then death can be such a simple result from that. I mean, I say simple, but it is just a little too much. Yep. And they don't come back. Whereas with overeating, we get obese and you get right.

Fentanyl Cleaning and Grief

SPEAKER_00 7:40

And that's so um with my son. Uh he had run out of his painkillers and had someone get something for him. I'm assuming, I don't I really don't know all the details, but never will. And he got fentanyl. And he his system wasn't used to fentanyl, and so he died from it. And my daughter had been addicted to fentanyl. She had taken it before. And even when the paramedics came the next morning and couldn't revive her, said that they wouldn't have been able to, even if I'd have called them 15 minutes ahead of time because she was already gone. Um, so literally it only took from six o'clock in the morning when her dad saw her the last time till I woke her up at 7:30. I mean, so in that hour and a half span, she was gone. And because they found fentanyl in her car, they literally shut the room off and they set told me to wear gloves, wear a mask, and go through this room from top to bottom, washing everything because they said one grain could kill us. And definitely the grandson. So I was fortunate enough to have one of my daughter's friends from her job. She lives in Miami, which is almost a two-hour drive. She dropped everything immediately. She and her husband came and they picked up my son because they have a son the same age, and they had played together for the past year, and they took him for the day so that I could clean the room. So I'm mourning on top of cleaning out everything in the room. And it's there's no way to even describe, even now, how I felt at that time.

SPEAKER_01 9:42

How have you found with a now raising your grandson who was your daughter's son? Yes. I mean, these are hard conversations that we have with our grandchildren because it is we have to talk about life and death. We have to talk about the very real dangers involved. How have you found talking with your grandson about this?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Um, he doesn't know how she died because he's still too young to understand why. He just knows that she got sick and she died. How old is he? He's five now, but he was almost three when she passed away. So um I don't think he remembers like how she feels or you know, like her touch or anything like that. He remembers her from pictures and he knows, you know, recognizes her from that. Um, and since my husband and I were both in his life from day one, he fortunately didn't have to switch homes. He was, you know, he's always lived here. So that part was an easy was easy for him to adjust to, but it took him probably three or four months before he stopped crying for mom.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

What kind of trauma are you experiencing and how is his healing going?

Potty Training Challenges

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Um, in the beginning, he had night terrors for about three or four months. Um, but he had had those night terrors a year prior, or he started having them. So I was only to assume that possibly when she would take him somewhere at nighttime, she might have gotten high, not paid attention at nighttime, and possibly he was crying, and that's what started it. I really don't know, but I just know that they resolved after about three months after she died, and he hasn't had them since. And I'm very thankful for that. The potty training, like we've talked about, was it took extremely long, and I was I had to do all kinds of research on that. I knew my own kids had been potty trained way before four years old. He finally, step number one, you know, he could at least was potty trained for going pee all the time, and I don't know how other how how else to describe it. But the other one, on the other hand, he was terrified to sit on the toilet. So we we went through all the little there's nothing in there, all this kind of thing. We tried the reward system, and when the reward even the reward system didn't work, I finally said, you know what? He's just not ready. I can't force, I'm not gonna sit a child on the toilet and force him. So I said, you know what? It'll he'll be ready when he's ready. I even bought the prize that he wanted. Set it up on the bar in the kitchen, and he walked by it every day. And we'd, you know, every once in a while, hey, you know, do you you can have that? He got he goes, no, I don't want it anymore. You know, so I mean he just literally wasn't ready. And it he was he turned five, and he literally would hold it, you know, the whole time he's in preschool, he would hold it and he would wait until he'd get home, and then he would literally take his underwear off, go get a pull-up and put the pull-up on, you know. And um, then when he turned five, I said, Hey, I said, we had a deal because we had talked about it two weeks prior. I said, Um, okay, your pull-ups are about to run out. I said, When they do, I said, you know, we need to really try this again. And sure enough, they ran out. He knew it was coming. He went in there and he was so proud of himself. I've never seen a kid more proud. And he goes, Does that mean I get my my pirate chest? I said, Yes, it does. You know, I've there's not been a problem since, you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Well, I you know, you can try all these different kinds of techniques, but something I am learning is that mainly the connection, the love connection. Yes, I will say as a child of the 60s, yes is where uh they heal, and uh we never quite know uh how they're gonna get through these situations. And every time I go back to that, well, gee, let me just connect with them. Uh I find that that is the answer in uh in more cases than not.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Oh, absolutely.

"Struggles and Sacrifices"

SPEAKER_01 15:13

And then they they actually provide their own solutions when we can get to that place with them. They they find a way of connecting with the and I use this term a lot in my podcast, the motherboard, yes, their motherboards, because they don't know what that feels like in so many cases. The trauma, the dysfunction in, you know, in in cases where we're talking about mental illness. Right. They don't know what their motherboard is, but when you get them back there and and help them navigate that place, then suddenly they become connected with something that feels very powerful to them. Yes. Themselves. Right? Yes. Yeah, little boys in potty training. Yes. It's interesting. Interesting. I I have a great story. We should just have an episode to talk about poop. Just that, yes. And across to yes, because it's just hilarious. Oh, yes. We still, my grandson and I still talk about poop. Oh my gosh. Let's talk about some of the other challenges that you've had navigating the double hit, using your retirement funds, your 401k to survive while raising a grandchild. The financial aspect of where this has put all of us is really difficult. How have you dealt with that?

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Um, it has been extremely difficult, especially after my husband had his accident and he was, you know, pretty much not able to work for almost two years, the past two years. Um, it literally happened six months after our daughter passed away, and then his father passed away the following June of that or that same year. So it was extremely difficult for him and for me. He felt like, you know, he wasn't providing for the family, but um I did have to dip into my 401k, and that was for our retirement. But on the flip side, had we have not had that 401k, we literally would have lost our house because there was no way my income would cover everything that we have. All of many people do.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yeah, many people do.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah, so I mean, yes, we had to do that, but I know even though I in the back of my head, you know, I still have those doubts. Oh my gosh, how am I going to replace it? I know it will, it'll all work out because everything that we has happened, we've been able to work it out. So I try most of the time to stay very positive. That's my best defense is try to be positive.

"Parenting Challenges and Patience"

SPEAKER_01 18:14

I've always told my kids, and I have to tell myself this often, fear, and of course I use this word very loosely, fear is not of God. It's like when I get into a place where I'm fearful, I feel very small. I call it my little brain. Yes. And then my little brain, and that has never served me in this process, but I'm learning that every single day, over and over. I'm I'm a tough person when it comes to learning new things. I am very much a creature of habit, and it's like I always say I have to I feel like I have to get hit it hit with the side of a two by four before I learn things. But at least I'm the same. Um recently, you know, this whole concept of let's approach things from a place of calmness. Yes. As much as I always thought beforehand that I was a very easygoing person, reacting with calmness has been difficult for me, but it's been four years. Yeah. Four years now, and I'm starting to get it.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yes, me f I am too. And it's oh well, I mean, like just like with you. I mean, even though I've only had him as an adopted child for two years, almost three, he's still been in my life all you know, his whole entire life. So it's yeah, it's it's definitely hard to be calm when all you want to do is scream sometimes. And sometimes I do. I try not to. And when I do lose my cool, and there are times where you just can't help it, you know. Sometimes you do lose your cool. And um, and then I'll apologize. I said, I'll just say, listen, I am so sorry that I yelled. Like the other night, for instance, he rolled a car really fast and it hit me in my foot. Of course it hurt. And so I yelled. And of course, then he like completely froze and shut down. And I felt bad because I knew he didn't mean to. So I immediately said, I am so sorry, as I'm sorry for yelling. But I said, please pay attention to where you're pushing that car.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

But don't you think that's been a powerful lesson for us to learn to be able to teach our grandchildren that saying, I'm sorry, yes, is part of being human.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yes, yes. And I want him to know that, you know. So I'm we're we're trying on a completely different level, you know.

"Grief, Overdose, and Resilience"

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Yeah, humbleness, this is a big part of this this process we're involved in. You you mentioned to me that when you were trying to find information to help you, that you did research on the internet and that you um you found this podcast through an AI search, which tells me that you're a researcher.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yes, I am. Just recently, though. I mean, I I used I I used to, you know, oh, if I need to find a place to go, I would Google it. That was about the extent of it. But it's been more, honestly, since we've had him. And of course, my son I was always saying, hey mom, just Google it, you know. Yes, I w I just I had seen a pod podcast with uh with David Kessler, where who's the grief um he has a lot of books out there, and I'm very hard, it's hard for me to remember the terms, but um he uh I think for all of us is in grief, but um yeah, but anyway, nonetheless, um he had lost a child over uh an overdose as well and had raised him well, and it just made me stop and think. And when I felt that in that episode because I was crying by the end of the episode, and I said, I need to find I said I know there's other people out there like me. I mean, I have a friend of mine, very close friend of mine who's raising two of her grandchildren as well. And I said, I know there's got to be something out there, so I Googled it and your name came out. Or not well, yes, you and your podcast. So, and you are the only one out there, and I'm so very thankful for that.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Um I think it's important for us to find community. It is. I know in the conversations that I have with others just like yourself, that and you know you witnessed uh Laurel came on the show today with my grandson, one grandson calling me, the other grandson trying to get in the door, and me calling for my husband to get help. That's our life. My life, that's our lives, that's all of our lives. I'm like um, I clean myself up and sometimes put on a little makeup when I do an interview, but that's better than me. I don't even know how pants down below, just so you know. Well, yes, and I want our listeners to know how important it is to have community and sharing our stories. I can't tell you how many people, just about everyone that I have interviewed that is a grandparent raising grandchildren, uh tells me that it's very therapeutic. It is. I know we have a lot of shame, a lot of guilt to be able to share that guilt and share it with others that are going through the same thing. Feeling alone is such a big part of what we're experiencing, and that isolation causes all kinds of crazy things to go on in our head.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

But when we put it out there, we realize how important it is not to let those things fester inside.

"Take It Day by Day"

SPEAKER_00 24:29

And honestly, talking about it, it helps your emotional well-being. Uh or it does mine anyway. And when I can talk to someone about it and someone that definitely understands, it helps to keep going through my day because I'm like, oh, I'm not the only one that's feeling this today. And seeing you today run back and forth, I was like, wow, that's my life. This is awesome, you know. You're just like me.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Yes, we're all just like each other, really. It helps us to hear other people's struggles too, because sometimes our struggles just feel insurmountable. And when I hear you having lost two children, I think, wow, that's that's not that's a whole lot harder than what I'm going through. But it is relative. What would you say? It what would you say to a grandmother who's lost her child yesterday, maybe a grandmother out there who's lost more than one child as yourself, and is holding a crying grandchild today. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

I would say, go ahead and cry. I cried together with mine, and they know that, hey, it's okay to cry, and you will get through it. It's not easy, but you just have to take one day at a time. Don't look too far in the future because then you're gonna make yourself crazy. Because I've tried that and it did not help at all. If anything, it made me crazy, literally, you know, for a little while. I mean, um, or made me feel crazy. But um, yeah. Once you just start step back and just tackle one day or even one hour at a time at that point. At that point, you literally are it's hour by hour, and then it's day by day, and then each day it does get a little bit better. Everyone grieves differently. So for others, they can just step right up and everything will be okay. I mean, okay to other people, maybe not okay inside, but they can go ahead and go out and do things. I was one of those people because I always have, you know, I don't know if it's an older child syndrome or what, but you know, it's like I have to take control, I have to step up, I have to make sure everybody's okay. And that's just how I did it. Other people may not be able to do that. And if you can't, then I would say lean on someone who is there that can, you know, who is the person that's stepping up. And it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Yeah. Thanks, Laurel. I know there's somebody out there who just heard that and it was just what they needed to hear today. So if you all out there are listening and you have a story and you'd like to share it, we'd love to share it with others that need to hear. We need each other. Thanks, Laurel. Well, I'll I'm asking three questions of all of those that I'm interviewing now this year, and all of this information, each episode will go into a book that I hope to publish at the end of this year. The first question I have for you is a systematic question. You mentioned clerical errors and outdated computers, and what the administrative weight of being in kinship care demands of us. What do you think is the biggest barrier that you faced when trying to get DCF or the school system to understand your grandson's specific needs?

"Crisis at Baby's Birth"

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Well, with the DCF, we were fortunate enough not to have to go through a lot of problems due to the fact that we were already foster parents from when he was first born. So, I mean, we had to go through all that at that time. So we had court dates and uh paperwork, and the paperwork is tremendous. But, you know, they have to come and uh inspect your home and do all, you know, inspect your finances and all these kind of things. So we didn't have to do that again, thankfully, because that would have been a lot to handle at that point. We were able to legalize adoption literally for three or four months after she passed away because there's no father involved. So we were able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

No, that's interesting. Because we we had a completely different situation. We were called by CPS to pick up the kids, but nobody put us through court in order to take them. Had we and you were assigned as a foster parent by the courts.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Because when he was born, she had uh drugs in her system, he did not. So immediately they had a detective, literally the day after he was born, at the hospital interviewing she and I separately, and they threatened to take him away the minute he was discharged from the hospital. And so we had to file as foster parents and say, you know, hey, we want to take this child. And they did not want to allow the baby to come to our house because she was living with us. But it was COVID and or the middle of COVID, and when we got in front of the judge in in the through the Zoom call, he was very kind enough to say, as long as we passed all the tests, which we did and followed all the rules that the you know for foster parenting, that she would be allowed to uh stay in the home with us as long as he was in a separate bedroom with me. That worked out well for us.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

The positive side of that also is also that as foster parents, you were able to immediately receive financial assistance for him as well.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

At that time, yes. As soon as he was legally adopted, which we did have to pay a lawyer to legally adopt him, because once she died, he wasn't technically in the foster system. They had just given us temporary custody. And so once she passed away, he only had Medicaid or the insurance and help until he was legally adopted. Once he was legally adopted, we didn't got nothing.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

So the Medicaid assistance didn't come with him when you adopted no, no.

SPEAKER_00 31:05

And is that specific to the state, do you know, or is that federal I know that if he had been taken by uh DCF, which he was never technically taken by them, so because of that, that that's why that happened with us. Now I have a friend of mine who her children grandchildren were taken, and so she does still get receive help because they were in the foster system to start with.

Preschool Program Challenges in Florida

SPEAKER_01 31:36

It seems like those are some of the systematic flaws. We took our grandchildren without them going through the foster care system, and because of that, we never received assistance. Exactly. And yet in the state of Montana, we did get some assistance once I did find out about TANF, which was years later, whereas when we moved to Louisiana, which I think is the right thing to do for grandparents, they should get some assistance even if they're not below the poverty level. It's the middle income families ourselves that suffer. Because now we're in Louisiana and there is no assistance for us as a middle income family. We would need to be at poverty level. And that's something that I'm working on finding out more about.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

That's pretty much the way it is here. Um we were able to get him into a or we got approved to get him into a program called Early Steps, which is something they have here in Florida. And um he was approved to have to do that for preschool. Well, I was okay with that, and then uh I went to sign him up and found out that we had to have him picked up by that was only a half-day program. So we had to have him picked up by it was either 12 30 or 3. I can't remember the details now. But I mean, my husband didn't get off work till four. I went in to work at 1230, so we had to not accept that program because there was nothing, you know, there wasn't nowhere, no one to pick him up and take him to a separate program, which would have cost money. So yeah, it was hard.

Coping With Grief and Loss

SPEAKER_01 33:28

And so we just it seems almost like there should be an advocate for grandparents when these trans transitions take place so that we're advised uh how to get the financial assistance because finances are a big problem for grandparents that are on retirement incomes, and many of us have to go back to work. And I know you're working now, and so is your husband's the taboo question that nobody wants to talk about overdose. How how did you handle the shame when the neighbors or the co-workers asked about your children? And how did you stop stop letting that shame govern your life?

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Well, for starters, when that happens, you're in shock. And you think everything's okay, but when you look back, as I do now, I was absolutely in shock, and I would just put my head down, you know, say, Oh, I'm you know, I I lost my kids to overdose. Um, I finally either didn't say anything, or at one point I was like, you know what? I don't have anything to be ashamed of. And yes, I lost my kids to overdose, you know, and it's okay because now they're not in pain any longer. That's pretty much how I answer people now whenever they ask if they do, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

This makes us tougher people. It does. You all are my heroes, and you all inspire me. It's amazing because we have to be tough and we have to have these big heart hearts at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Well, kudos to you for surviving that, Laurel. And I know there are so many other parents out there that have lost their children to drugs. I have a grandson who survived only because his mother had Narcan in her hands at the time. We have to be tough. And that that when I refer to us as CEOs, we are the best CEOs in the country, and we are all trying to do a good job of managing households while our hearts are breaking at the same time. Absolutely. So my my heart and prayers go out to you too, Laura. Thank you. If you were COO of the country, and you go, and you had to write a policy for grandparents who have to drain their 401ks due to family tragedies, what protection would you put in place to ensure that their future isn't sacrificed for the present?

SPEAKER_00 36:14

I think as much as, and we've talked about this too, is we need child care and and medical assistance. Amen. Because those are the two biggest things because childcare alone can drain your monthly income. Oh, yeah. And not just for us, just for everyone. But I mean, especially, you know, if you're on a um retirement, it's it's just really difficult. And I also think that there should be something out there for after school activities, summer activities, so expensive to do sports. It really is. And sports is one of the best things to get your children into, you know, so that they don't hang around in front of the TV, which I try to limit, but and that's a whole nother story. But those are like the three biggest things that I would that I say we definitely need in this country.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

Very good points. Well, thanks, Laurel. It's been so nice to meet you face to face. And thank you. You made my day, and I know many others that will listen to this. Again, I encourage everybody to write in and take the time to share your story. I know we all have incredibly busy lives, but I know for for many of us like myself, this is my social time. And this can be our opportunity to make friends with another person that is going through the same thing we are.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Have a great day, Laurel.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Thank you. I will talk to you soon.

Radical Leadership: Love & Acceptance

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Yes, definitely. All right. As we close the boardroom today, I want you to sit with Laurel's words. Go ahead and cry. If you lost your child yesterday, or if you're holding a crying grandchild today, don't look at the five-year plan. Look at the next hour. Are you judging yourself for your little brain fear, or are you stepping into your high-level infrastructure planning? The shame belongs to the drug, not to you. You are the CEO of a sanctuary built on a graveyard, and that makes you the bravest leader I know. Coming up in episode 113, we're welcoming back a powerhouse in the world of leadership psychology, Dr. Anthony Sillard. He's director of the Center for Sustainable Leadership in Rome and returns for his third appearance on our show. He's coached G20 cabinet ministers and CEOs of Disney and IBM, but he's here to talk to us about the most radical leadership tool in his new book, Love and Suffering. Acceptance. If you're struggling to accept the new normal of your home, you won't want to miss this masterclass. We are 2.7 million strong. Still nurturing and still here. Whether you're sweatpants deep in potty training or auditing your retirement funds, remember you are the motherboard. Keep leading, and I'll see you in the next boardroom.