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275% of all behaviors are because of a response to our power over approach. What does this groundbreaking statement mean for grandparents raising grandchildren? And how can understanding it change everything?

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Join us for a transformative conversation with Katherine Sellery, a nonviolent communication expert who will guide you through untangling inherited patterns, adapting past parenting, and embracing a conscious approach that builds deeper connections and true self worth.

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If you're ready to break cycles and create a new, powerful legacy, this episode is a must. Listen welcome to Grandparents Raising Nurturing through Adversity. In this podcast, we will delve deep into the challenges and triumphs of grandparents raising grandchildren as we navigate the complexities of legal, financial, and emotional support. I invite you to join us on a journey of exploring thoughts, feelings and beliefs surrounding this growing segment of our society. Drawing from real stories and expert advice, we will explore the nuances of child rearing for children who have experienced trauma and offer valuable resources to guide you through the intricate journey of kinship care.

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We'll discuss how we can change the course of history by rewriting our grandchildren's future, all within a supportive community that understands the unique joys and struggles. This podcast was made especially for you.

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Welcome to a community where your voice is heard, your experiences are valued, and your journey is honored.

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As a grandparent, one of the most challenging things can be trying to figure out the root cause of our grandchildren's repetitive, poor behavior. It can be incredibly frustrating when you feel like you've tried everything. What's even tougher is managing our own reactions in those moments.

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It's easy to get swept up in the frustration, and I know that doesn't help anyone. Catherine Sellery shares how these behaviors are often a signal of an unmet need.

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Applying this concept can be a game changer, not just for understanding our grandchildren, but for helping us regulate ourselves too. Listen to Katherine share with us how we can all better understand those underlying needs and better manage our responses.

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Welcome. Katherine, you did your training with Marshall Rosenberg on nonviolent communication, and because your work emphasizes how our upbringings profoundly shape our behaviors for grandparents, these might stem from our original parenting experience and our own childhood.

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So can you help us begin to untangle these layers and differentiate between patterns so that we can continue those that we want to with our grandchildren and those that we like to shift? Absolutely. We were just chatting a minute ago about Albuquerque, New Mexico, and that is actually where Marshall lived was in Albuquerque. Yeah. And the center for Non Violent Communication, cnbc is based there. And I know you said you were going to be hopping over there too. So you might want to look into it though he has passed.

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But the foundation in the work around restorative justice and NVC continues. Its just great stuff. He was one of my teachers. The great thing about NVC is that it really moves into the here and the now and being able to acknowledge what are the underlying unmet needs at any given moment that could be driving the behaviors that we don't like to see. So we can use NVC as a template for, you know, effective and connected and honest alive conversations by just looking past the tragic expression of the unmet needs and seeing the pain that exists that's driving these drowning behaviors and connect with that instead. So that would be the way to transcend our transgenerational trauma and move past the replication of that is to just shift our mind around seeing the heart. That was one of the analogies that would be used in an NVC context is that Marshall talked about the giraffe consciousness. The consciousness of the giraffe is the big hearted animal, 75 pound heart in a giraffe. And the ability for us to see behaviors through our heart rather than through the jackal, which would be the judgmental, critical diagnostic way of connecting with somebody's behaviors that we're having difficulty being around. So if we can see behaviors that we don't like, we tend to generally, I think, go into judging those as bad or wrong or criticizing them as our experience around them, which is usually not very pleasant.

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And we can focus on our experience around somebody who's using behaviors that are expressing that they're having trouble meeting their needs. Or we can be like, yeah, you know, it's really hard to be around somebody who can't meet their needs, especially when they don't have skills and so they tend to just fall apart. Now, do I want to talk about my experience of what it's been like being around you as you fall apart, or do I want to focus on, oh my God, you're falling apart, oh my God, get my little rowboat and you know, you know, run out there and pluck you out of that ocean before you go down? So it's a shift in consciousness, it's a shift in the way we see things.

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What are some common patterns that you've seen, especially with grandparents? I know you have worked with grandparents.

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The grandparents have a, oftentimes they're in a really tricky position. They're being with grandchildren and maybe raising grandchildren.

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And at the same time they may still be in relationship with their own parents. And at the same time they are in relationship with their kids as well. So each one of those dynamics can be very different. And what evokes out of us can also be different depending on the dynamic I'm talking about. So, so for example, with one's own parents, with one's own mom, you could get really triggered. And that may evoke out of you difficult feelings that you're managing at the same time as trying to have a conversation with the person outside of you. So the inner conversation, the inner dialogue can be catalyzed because the dynamic with, let's say your mom is potentially dredging up unresolved trauma that is pre existing this conversation today and catalyzing like an old pattern that existed from long ago where maybe it was about you should be seen and not heard and you're still trying to find your voice in this relationship. So then if you learn that pattern, for example, to be seen and not heard, then it may be really hard for you when you're with grandkids or even your own kids, when they're trying to be seen and heard. And there could be something deeply embedded within you that doesn't think that that's the right way for kids to be, that they're supposed to be obedient and compliant and subservient and they should do as they're told. I mean, those are typical patterns that can create conflict.

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You emphasize shifting the lens through which we see ourselves and others. How can we, as grandparents that came from another generation, begin to do that in our everyday lives? I think it comes from awareness. So if we're aware of the fact that we're in a particular dance, then that's usually like the first step to giving us an access to a different dance or a different connection.

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So for example, let's say that, you know, you have a grandchild who you would like to clear the table off and you just say, you know, hey, it's, I'm getting ready to put dinner out. Could you pick up the dishes and clear the table and put those toys away and. And they ignore you and they don't do anything and they just keep playing. And you know, they've got their little things set up here and their little thing set up there. Now maybe your dance is where you say something, they don't respond and then you go into threats. Hey, you know, if you don't do this right now, then no TV later tonight, or no games or no reading or you know, whatever the threat is that you use that you think is going to help you get that next activity Rolled in, then that would be your dance. And so rather than going into that dance and using threats, punishments, or maybe you try to use the, you know, instead of the stick, you use the carrot. Maybe it's a, hey, I'll give you. I'll give you some sweets if you just do what grandma wants.

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And in both of those cases, I would say you're training this child to be thinking about what's going to happen to them if they don't do what you want, as opposed to you recognizing that if there's some resistance there, the opportunity is to tune in to, gosh, I wonder what's going on for them. Because rather than assuming that they're not going to want to support you, the assumption is that it's normal and natural that each person could be having a different experience internally. I wonder what's going on for this person that's not cleaning up the table. So play that role for us.

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We have a child that isn't doing what they want. Right.

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Instead of doing our other dances. Yeah.

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How would you approach it? So you'd get curious.

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So I wonder what's going on, you think to yourself, with my grandchild, huh? Hey, I can see you're really having trouble shifting this activity.

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Something really fun happening here. And then maybe you have connection. Maybe there's a chance for there to be this moment of, like, connecting with what's going on in the activity for them. And they might. They might look up and say, oh, yeah, come on over, Grandma. I want to show you. And then you're like, okay, and you come over and they want to show you their whole village that they've set up and this little pond over here they've made, and this little house over here. And, you know, this whole, like, labyrinth is going on in their imagination. And now you're curious about it. And now you're in their little world with them, and they're telling you all about it and you're engaging and.

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And now you have connection. And this is a new opportunity to say, whoa, I can see this is really fun. And what an amazing world you've set up. I'm trying to figure out how to set dinner out on the table. What do you think we could do about that? And now that you're in that world with them, maybe they hear you for the first time, because the first time when you spoke, they didn't even know you were there.

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They were so absorbed in this activity, and now there's a chance for you to go. Any ideas?

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Because I definitely love what you got going here. I got to figure out how I'm going to do what I need to do. What do you think we could do about that? Now it's called collaborative problem solving.

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And you're engaged in what they're up to and you're asking them to be engaged in what you're up to. And usually when there's that kind of lovely warm connection, there's also a lot of ease and grace around shifts and transitions.

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I like to sometimes blame this generation on this separated way that we tend to live our little worlds on our cell phones and on our computers and we all have agendas.

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But I don't think that's just this generation. I think that this is an issue that our parents and our grandparents and it was all relative to whatever their lifestyle was that they were living that we get in these tunnel vision lifestyles that don't involve taking the time to have that kind of communication with each other. Wouldn't you agree with. I do agree for sure. So it might be worse now because, you know, of our phones, you know, all this stuff, it's just we're so much more distracted. And I do think we also over time our attention spans are a lot smaller.

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They're really narrow. Right.

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And I think there's a lot of evidence to support that. So it's, it makes it more discipline is required to really create the space for connection to break out of that, you know, run, run, run and all of the stuff we've got lined up and to just have space for play and to really just slow down and not just, just be all about this next thing, this next thing. We lose so many opportunities to build our relationships with other people when we're just focused on the next and the transition and don't have the breath, the pause.

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Yeah. You know, you said something in our pre interview that has stuck with me all week long.

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I thought it was a very thought provoking statement.

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75% of all behaviors are because of a response to our power over approach. Yeah. Can you elaborate on that? Thomas Gordon, who was also a teacher of mine, Thomas Gordon was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize based on this research around resentment flows, retaliation, rebellion and resistance. So retaliation, rebellion, resistance. I'm always listening for the three Rs because the three Rs are a result of power being used over someone.

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Dr. Louise Porter, who I co wrote the Guidance Approach to Parenting guidebook with, she's an educational psychologist who works with kids. And her research found that while Gordon was correct in understanding that when you use Rewards and punishments, which is an external locus of causality as we kind of mentioned a minute ago. So rewards and punishments, the idea that it's what you do to somebody that makes them change their behavior.

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If you just figure out what the right thing to do to them is, you'll get them to change their behavior, to do the behavior you want.

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It's a behavioralist approach. So it's a very narrow perspective. And when, and most of us grew up with rewards and punishments, and most of us tried that in our child rearing as well. I know I did. And that that's what helped me move into learning more about other approaches is that I just didn't feel good about it. And, and what I think I was experiencing was that, yeah, I might get the behavioral change that I wanted, but it wasn't for the reasons that I wanted.

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It wasn't because they could see my perspective or understand what was going on for me. It was that they were afraid of what I was going to do to them if they didn't. Yes, right.

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So that would be the resentment that I was feeling from them is that they didn't feel seen, heard or understood from their perspective. It wasn't like I took the time to be considerate of what was going on inside of them. Like the little example we just used where in that case I took the minute to figure out like, huh, something's going on over there on the table.

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I wonder what it is. And so by just being curious and being interested in understanding like what was happening for the child, we started with connection before correction.

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So what we know is that 75% of behavioral disruptions are secondary problems. They're activated by the original controlling form of discipline that we use to deal with the primary issue, which is picking up the table, putting their clothes in the hamper, picking up the towel after the shower, putting their bag where it belongs when they walk in the door, putting their shoes in the closet, all of those day to day to day, you know, basic sort of little things that really start to build up and irritate us. Every time we have that primary issue and we deal with it heavy handedly, we run the risk of activating retaliation, rebellion and resistance. And, and when that happens, we then end up dealing with the slam door. I hate you, mommy, I hate you, grandmas. All of the comments, all of the things that then become the next problem that we deal with, but it doesn't really help us resolve the primary issue. Cleaning up the table, picking up the toys, putting their things away, all of those are the primary issues and when we could deal with them differently, we don't activate the three Rs and we don't spend so much of our time dealing with the secondary problems.

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I love that. That's going to take a lot of time and reminders for that to soak in with me because this is a habit that I've learned from my parents for years and years and years. But I see the beauty in the concept. Yeah, and you're right, it is. It takes a while to shift our habits.

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So I would also give yourself a lot of grace around that.

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Yes. Yeah. You know, you said something else too which has really stayed in my mind all week long. You made a statement that said if we want to lower kids perspective, we should praise them. If you want to hurt your children's self esteem, praise them. Right. Praise is very much about what other people think about me.

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So self concept is about what do I think about me. And if we want to build children's healthy self concept then we reflect back to them, we highlight, we verify, we acknowledge, but we never praise.

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And the difference, again it's a distinction because they can feel like, well that's, that's praise, isn't it? So let me give you some examples. Praise is when we say things like oh, I'm so proud of you.

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That's me telling you I approve of your behavior. So again it's kind of like rewards and punishments that are about what somebody else outside of me is doing about my behavior. They're going to reward it, they're going to punish it or they're going to praise it. So they're all kind of in the same bucket where self concept is an internal story. It's about well what do I think about me, do I feel good about me? So you could, instead of saying I'm so proud of you, you could say hey, congratulations, I see you worked really hard on that. How do you feel about that? And now you're helping someone begin to self reflect. So a child can say I feel so good about that. I'm so proud of myself. And you can say congratulations, that's so exciting.

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And that supporting them because we can celebrate and we can acknowledge and we can highlight and we verify and those are all really good things to do. But they're very specific. So it's not a generalized Are you happy with that is very different than I'm proud of. You have a really different feel to them. Are you proud of yourself? You can say that and a child can go yeah, I am, I'M really proud of myself.

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Yeah, yeah. Do you see how one is about supporting them at recognizing that it took them their time, their energy, their dedication, their stick to it. Iveness. And those are things that you want them to be able to go, wow, I am really a kind person.

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I did stick to that. I do have resilience. I can do things. I can do hard things. So that's where they're beginning to see in their own mind the things that they have, the strengths that they have.

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That's building self concept. The other is building what other people think. Think about me. Yeah, yeah.

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And we don't want them to be so concerned with what other people think because then it's all about people pleasing.

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It's very dangerous when it comes to peer situations where they're so worried about what other people think about them that they'll not even have a sense of their own core values?

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Yeah, right. I think that's very common for many people.

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Absolutely. But because everybody grew up with the praise mentality and that becomes so dangerous. I mean, what you think about me is none of my business. And that's Marshall Rosenberg. What you think about me is none of my business. My God, I have no idea what you think about me, nor do I care. Well, it comes also with first believing that we're okay with ourselves, which is the background to all of it. Absolutely. So if you're a grandparent like myself and you recognize that we've been raised with these patterns of behavior, what's a very first practical step that we can take to help us shift those dynamics? So I think that when we, like, like I said, when we have the awareness that we are being triggered by something the kids are doing, then what, what, what happens when we're triggered? Think about it. Stop and think. Yeah.

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What happens when we're triggered? So, you know, generally when we get really triggered, we do do certain things.

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Yeah. So we tend to become like self righteous, holier than thou. We make the other person bad or wrong. We might call 400 people to let them know that this person is terrible. Can you believe they did that? So, I mean, we, we form alliances. These are kind of the things that show us that we're in an overreaction. So we can pause then and we can be like, whoa, I am in such an overreaction. And again, overreactions are that this moment in time, this person did, said or acted in a way that activated something inside of me that is already there. So this here, what's happening here is evoking.

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And tickling and irritating a pre existing something in me. So I'm now experiencing something that's not even got to do with this thing out here. Right. It's not even related other than this catalyzed it. It was the spark that got the kaboom going in here. And that's actually a really. I mean, from a perspective.

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Perspective, it can be really interesting if we begin to look at ourselves with interest.

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Right? Yeah, I've been doing it a lot over the last few years.

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And now if we're looking at a child that is doing something that irritates us and we then just say, oh, they're, they're a person that's got something going on and it's different than what I want to have happening. Let's find out about this person and what's going on with them and talk to them about what I need right now and how can we make this relationship happen?

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How can we negotiate? How can we talk about how they're doing, how we're feeling and what we want to have happen and what they need to have happen? Yeah.

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So when we look at behavior as through this needs based paradigm, when we look at all behaviors are an attempt to meet a need.

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And the failure to be able to meet our needs can create what we call the tragic expression of the unmet need. So we're always looking at behaviors.

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I mean, I guess you could say we're peeling the onion. So you have these behaviors and you're like, wow, this behavior is just not working for me.

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So the first thing we do because 75% of behavioral disruptions are secondary problems. Their retaliation, rebellion and resistance.

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So 75%, three out of four of our behavioral disruptions are secondary problems. They're activated by controlling forms of discipline.

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So when that's the case, the first thing you always say to yourself is, is this one of the three Rs? Is this one of the three Rs? Am I in the middle of a three R situation? Are any of the Rs in the room? Because that's the first thing you think about because it's so common and you go, oh yeah, this was activated by me when I came down hard on them. So I know what I need to do.

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I need to figure out how to deal with that problem primary issue differently so that I don't have this harvest. So we're in effect reparenting ourselves. Yeah, of course, we are totally reparenting ourselves. We're just out there figuring it all out for the first time.

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Isn't that a beautiful thing, though, when you realize that we as grandparents are having an opportunity to do that and change the course of so many things in these kids lives, including our own.

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I mean, I love learning at my age.

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Yeah, totally. You know, children are people too. I think that's sort of the baseline, is that when we begin to see children are people too, then we don't see them as out to get us, driving us crazy on purpose, doing this intentionally.

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These are kind of the scripts that run in our head sometimes.

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And this negative view of children that they're out to get us, they're doing it on purpose. They could have done better. They didn't do better because they're trying to get back at me. Like all of these kind of stories that we tell ourselves, this also activates how we're feeling.

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So when we think about our own narrative, about what we're seeing and how we're explaining it to ourselves, that's another first step. It's really a great opportunity to be a part of changing the world.

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Oh, I agree. Yeah. I mean, I think if we can just start changing how we relate to our children, our grandchildren, ourselves, and the narratives that we have, the space that we give for change, that we allow for falling on our face again, to recognize that that little inner one in us as well is kind of worried to make mistakes. Because sometimes mistakes, maybe in our primary families, there wasn't any room for it.

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Maybe mistakes were made to feel like that was a really bad thing to do. Like you can't make mistakes. You can't. I mean, you can't make mistakes. But even more, you can't make behavioral mistakes. It's okay not to learn how to spell a word. It's okay if you're struggling with math, or maybe it wasn't. But sometimes those kind of mistakes, academic mistakes, developmental mistakes, they're more acceptable. It's okay you don't know how to walk. I know you got to learn it. It's okay you don't know how to spell. I know you got to learn it. It's okay that you don't know how to read and write. I know you got to learn it. But for some reason it's not okay that you don't know how to behave. And for that I'm going to punish you.

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How is that even possible? How is it that we've got this divide in our minds, that these kind of things are developmentally normal, but this isn't, and that we have to come down hard on it, as if we would Say, I'm going to come down hard on you because you didn't know the spelling convention I. Before he excep or c. Well, why would anybody know that? Well, and, you know, and I get that this is hard. I get that this is.

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You know, a lot of grandparents say, oh, my gosh, I. I have as so little money as it is, and now I have these kids I have to raise, and I have challenges of my own. And we've got this generation after generation after generation of people in our family that are not parenting well.

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I could see people looking at this as a failure.

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Whereas if you talk to people that have been around people that are dying or in their last days, they say, more important than money, more important than things, are the relationships with those you are closest to.

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This is an opportunity to really dig into that gold mine that's out there. I believe that, too. And I would say that if they're listening to your podcast right now, then they're already demonstrating that they are looking to learn more, wanting to do better, exploring, looking into, investigating.

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That's not bad parenting. That's not bad grandparenting. That's great grandparenting. I mean, that's people who give a damn who are looking to make a difference. I think, you know, back to this idea of making mistakes, I think we got to just give ourselves, all of us. Like, put the sign up in your house right now that says if you're not making a mistake today, you're not learning and give yourself permission to make mistakes. Give your grandkids permission to make mistakes, your kids permission to make mistakes, and just see it as natural, normal, okay, stuff to do.

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Absolutely. Because we are so hard on ourselves.

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And we've also experienced other people being really hard on us because they also learned something about perfectionism. It's such a. It's such a terrible, toxic thing, this idea that we have to be perfect, we have to do it right all the time. That if we do anything, you know, that isn't perfect, that we should be ashamed of ourselves when it's like, whoa, yeah, yeah.

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So terrible. So today, key takeaways. Understanding our inherited patterns, understanding when we're reacting. Are we in retaliation, resentment meant, or rebellion and resistance?

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Rebellion, rebellion and resist. Are we or our kids? Our grandkids are one of the three R's in the room.

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Connection versus correction. Yeah.

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I'm working on this myself every day, and this little nugget of. Of information that you've given us is so valuable. I thank you so much, so much for the Conversation. Where can listeners find out more about you and the work you do?

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Come to conscious parenting revolution.com and I think that we'll have our quiz up on our website by then and you can go and see what your blind spot is.

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And I encourage everyone to work on this every day.

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We're changing a paradigm that we have lived with for many, many years. But remember that it's okay to be learning, it's okay to be growing and changing all the time.

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Yeah, it's just such a, you know, it's so beautiful to see anybody who's willing to look at themselves at any age. You know, I remember.

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I don't know if we have time for this. A really short story. I remember my dad saying to my. I'd left my daughter with him. I said, dad, I'm going out, could you watch Pia?

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And he said, sure. Aren't you sure? And I came back and I said, where is she? He said, well, I, I had to discipline her, honey. She was rude to her grandpa. And I said, oh my gosh, what did, what did you do to her? Well, she's in her room.

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And I was like, oh no, you know, like she'd never been sent to her room in her whole life. So I went downstairs and she's in floods of tears. And I said, honey, what happened? She said, I don't know.

00:35:45.599 --> 00:36:02.960
Grandpa all of a sudden started telling me that I was being disrespectful. I don't even know what I did, Mommy. I was like, oh. So I came upstairs, I brought her with me, and I sat down between my 85 year old dad and my 5 year old daughter. And I said, you guys have had a breakdown.

00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:35.110
And you know, I don't know if I can help you reconnect or not, but I know you each have a side to this story. And dad said, yeah, well, she was disrespectful to her grandpa and she can't do that. And I was like, I can see that really hurt your feelings, dad, I'm so sorry. And I said, pia, you know, I guess something happened. And she said, I don't know, Mommy. He just kept saying, come to lunch. And I was finishing my coloring and I was going to come as soon as I was done, but then he got so mad at me and then he told me to go downstairs and he screamed at me. Wow.

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I was like, oh, sweetie, I can see you're really hurt by this. I'm so sorry. And I hope the two of you can make up somehow. And I'm gonna leave it up to you guys. And they each went their separate directions. And my dad came back to me later and he said, honey, it's a better way.

00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:57.039
Mm, yeah. And he was, it is a better way.

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And he was able to say that. And I just thought that took such courage.

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Yes. Well, it's more important for us to enjoy life with each other than it is to hang on to these old concepts that just don't heal or help anything. Yeah, I totally agree. I really appreciate you and I do you.

00:37:21.369 --> 00:37:27.530
Kathryn, thank you. Thank you for today. Thank you for all your work and what you're doing to help everybody.

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It's my pleasure. And that brings us to the end of another incredibly insightful episode.

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Katherine, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us today.

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Your perspective on understanding unmet needs as the root of so much behavior and how that can even help us manage our own reactions is truly transformative for everyone listening. I hope today's Conversation Speaks sparked some new ways of thinking for you, just as it did for me.

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If you found this episode helpful, please share it with a friend or family member who might also benefit from Kathryn's insights. And as always, we'd love to hear from you.

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What's one key takeaway you're going to apply after listening today? Let us know in the comments or on social media.

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Next week, get ready for a completely different but but equally impactful perspective. We're embarking on a profound journey with Brian McLaren, a renowned author and thought leader, as he discusses his brand new book, the first in a captivating trilogy just released this week. Brian's new work invites us to ponder the biggest questions about legacy, our future, and the world our grandchildren will inherit. Explore how his narrative delves into humanity's spiritual needs and moral concerns, mirroring the very real anxieties and hopes many grandparents hold for their families. Plus, we'll discuss how his characters navigate deep intergenerational relationships and immense personal struggles, reflecting so many of the challenges our listeners face. Thank you for tuning in to Grandparents Raising Grandchildren Nurturing through Adversity. Remember, you are not alone. Together we can find strength and hope in the face of adversity.

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Peace be with you. And I pray that you find some time this week to listen to your inner wisdom amongst the noise and the pandemonium of this world.