Rebuilding Trust and Connection: A Guide to Healing in High-Conflict Divorce

WEBVTT

00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:26.480
What happens when a child's world is full of conflict and unpredictability? They're often torn apart by divided loyalties, struggling to trust and unable to regulate their big emotions. This week we're honored to welcome Dr. David S. Marcus, a clinical psychologist with 40 years of experience who has served as a child advocate and high conflict family court.

00:00:27.210 --> 00:00:37.289
Dr. Marcus reveals that our most important job as caregivers is to be a soothing presence, a predictable source of calm in a chaotic world.

00:00:38.250 --> 00:00:55.719
Join us to learn how to avoid the common parenting mistakes that shut down communication, understand the profound impact of a child's need for predictability, and discover the essential empty out process that gives them the emotional security to heal.

00:00:56.920 --> 00:01:06.519
I hope you won't miss this opportunity to gain crucial insights that will help you rebuild trust, foster resilience, and pave the way for a happier family life.

00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:59.219
Welcome to Grandparents Raising Grandchildren Nurturing Through Adversity. In this podcast, we will delve deep into the challenges and and triumphs of Grandparents raising grandchildren as we navigate the complexities of legal, financial and emotional support. I invite you to join us on a journey of exploring thoughts, feelings and beliefs surrounding this growing segment of our society. Drawing from real stories and expert advice, we will explore the nuances of childrearing for children who have experienced trauma and offer valuable resources to guide you through the intricate journey of kinship care.

00:02:01.780 --> 00:02:19.340
We'll discuss how we can change the course of history by rewriting our grandchildren's future, all within a supportive community that understands the unique joys and struggles. This podcast was made especially for you.

00:02:20.780 --> 00:02:29.819
Welcome to a community where your voice is heard, your experiences are valued, and your journey is honored.

00:02:37.500 --> 00:02:59.310
I'm as guilty as anyone of falling back on the parenting techniques that my own parents used. But as I'm navigating raising these grandchildren, I've had to admit that those old ways just aren't working. And it's easy to feel stuck sometimes, or to think I just don't know how to do it anymore. But after my conversation with Dr.

00:02:59.310 --> 00:03:09.900
Marcus, a few lights went on. His wisdom from his work in High Conflict Family Court is so evident and I left that discussion with a profound realization.

00:03:11.500 --> 00:03:32.620
If I want to truly leave a greater legacy for these children and change the course of history in my family, first I must be willing to look at some very important steps in rebuilding trust and connection for them. I honestly wish everyone in our community could hear this episode.

00:03:34.389 --> 00:03:48.389
Welcome to the show, David. Thank you. Your expertise in the field of clinical psychology is so important, especially because you're also a legal Resource. And there aren't many psychologists that have your background. Why is that?

00:03:49.830 --> 00:05:12.959
Well, it's a risky thing to do. I did a lot of custody evaluations, for instance. And whenever you do a custody evaluation, nine times out of 10, one of the parties is going to hate you because you're going to fight for the other party. So, you know, one thing that they can do to get even or discredit you is put in a complaint to like, the state board of psychology. You know, there's a state board in every. In every state, you know, and you can register complaints about psychologists on all kinds of, you know, ethical standards and blah, blah, blah. And they try to do that in order to discredit you so their attorney can go back to court and say, well, Dr. Marcus, he's unethical. So for that reason, not a lot of us do it. He needed a good attorney, and I had one very good guy. He gained confidence in doing them over and over again. You realize, you know, more than the attorneys or the judges. And they. And the judges really appreciate having somebody with a. Not just an opinion. But what I would have to do is I would sit there with a wireless keyboard type verbatim what people would tell me. So when I would write the report, which were lengthy, I could cite the people, the children say, this is why I think this. And that's what they appreciated, not just me coming up with an opinion out of my head.

00:05:13.120 --> 00:05:16.000
So I was called upon quite a bit to do these.

00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:23.560
And they were very labor intensive, and I got a reputation for doing them because the children really needed an advocate.

00:05:24.600 --> 00:05:41.480
These children were being torn apart in high conflict divorce situations. Yeah, they were sometimes abused and neglected, but most of the time just torn apart emotionally. You know, you don't do a custody evaluation if you can settle it any other way because they're pricey.

00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:50.139
These people couldn't do it. They were hammering at each other and the kids were in the middle. I had to do something for these children.

00:05:50.860 --> 00:05:52.779
I was an advocate for the children at the court.

00:05:54.379 --> 00:06:13.660
Let's talk about how you begin working with a family to begin re. Establishing communication or to find a common language for a family that's being torn apart by issues like that. Okay.

00:06:14.379 --> 00:06:39.189
It's a sort of a precondition here which affects the treatments. I'll bring it up. Okay. If a case is court ordered, for instance, typically it's because the people aren't willing to come in, or one party is not willing to come in. All right. Or there wouldn't be a need for A court order. Right. In a case of parent alienation syndrome, the parent doing the alienating has no motivation for treatment.

00:06:41.430 --> 00:06:44.990
And if the alienation is serious enough, the kids certainly don't want it either.

00:06:44.990 --> 00:06:52.310
They've had to take a side and they sided with that one parent and don't want to hear about the other parent in very serious cases of alienation.

00:06:53.990 --> 00:07:22.399
So one of the things that's important is to start really early in the conflict, if you can do it now, doing private practice, most of the people I see are functional, you know, and if they're there voluntarily, it's because they want what's best for their children. Many times they're trying to avoid the legal system, which is absolutely the right thing to do, if you can. Legal system, by its very nature is adversarial.

00:07:23.199 --> 00:08:38.509
Okay? Right now, there are attempts to smooth that out. Collaborative law, for instance, is one of those. It's a model for people not having to go to court. The attorneys and child person and the psychologist, you know, they have a whole team of people trying to avoid the court. The, you know, mediation is another way of trying to avoid the court. So if the cases go to court and they just can't agree, they send them to somebody like me. We need a custody evaluation. And fortunately, there are guidelines for custody evaluations put out by the American Psychological Association. They're very specific and lengthy. And one of them, the most important one, is that it has to be a broadsided evaluation. Talk to moms, dads, grandparents, babysitters, teachers, and Uncle Billy. You know what I mean? Because what you're looking. Because in a costly evaluation, you're going to get two totally different responses from the parents. Of course, that's why they're having a custody evaluation. So what you learn as a psychologist is the best predictor of future behavior is recent behavior.

00:08:38.990 --> 00:09:45.980
So you talk to these people and say, tell me what you observe. How is this person with their little child? How is, you know, how they get along? You know, because one of the main things about custody is that you've got to promote and encourage the relationship of your ex and his family or her family with your children. And that's what gets really not done. Which you probably don't see very often. Well, they make lip service. You had success in that area? Much success? Well, that's an interesting question, because, you know, if they get to the point of a custody evaluation, of course they want to put their best foot forward. And they'll tell you this, and they'll tell you that the way to get accurate information is to get consensus. You know, you do talk to the babysitter who happen to see them fighting on the front lawn in front of the children. You know, sometimes grandparents, but sometimes grandparents say, I don't want to get involved, hurt the family. And the other important aspect is with this, and I have to assess this.

00:09:46.539 --> 00:10:59.490
When I get referred to a case that's heading toward either a high conflict, I'm dealing with them, or even divorce or custody, I have to assess how psychologically minded these parents are. Can they benefit from a counselor? Sometimes they need individual therapy because that's what's getting. The emotional difficulties are getting in the way of their parenting or their, you. Know, there's a lot of. There is. How do they communicate, which is what you referred to. They communicate very poorly, not only with each other, but with their children. And that's what hurts the children. And what we've seen is the results with the kids, the impact of that kind of communication on children's feelings and their inability to regulate their feelings because of it. That's a very insightful thing. Because children, there's a process. I'm going to start a little further back than that. It's okay with you. Laura, please. What these children mostly do not get that is so essential to their development is predictability.

00:11:01.809 --> 00:11:28.389
Their parents, if they're fighting or there's neglect or abuse or drug addiction, whatever it might be that's causing the impact on the family, or they just don't get along. They're not there for their children, using their emotional resources to deal with their own problems. So they're not predictable. Now, I really emphasize this, I want to emphasize it to your, the grandparents, etc.

00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:42.720
Because that's what these, most of these children need. They come from an unpredictable environment. They can't predict their parents responses. Sometimes they've had to take on a role of being the pleaser or the appeaser if their parents are fighting.

00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:54.480
Predictability for all of us, not just children, is the basis of trust. When you can predict somebody, you trust them. These children have a hard time trusting.

00:11:55.590 --> 00:12:02.149
Yeah. And also with younger children especially, predictability is not only the basis of trust, it's the basis of their security.

00:12:04.149 --> 00:12:31.429
And this home is not secure. So do you find, I'm just curious, do you find that the best solution in a particular situation is to find the most secure, reliable solution for those children? Yes. Is that what you look for in solving a case? Yeah. You know, there's a. There's a term I use and part of My book that's going to be coming out soon.

00:12:31.750 --> 00:12:49.309
But a term I use, a soothing presence, is somebody who's okay when you're not. When you think about the people we turn to when we're upset, they're usually specific people, friends or family members. Unless you wear your heart on your sweetie, you must find specific people and they're okay when we're not. Yes.

00:12:49.629 --> 00:13:00.669
And, and I use the term presence instead of person. Let me explain that, because there's so many things that impact being a soothing presence.

00:13:00.750 --> 00:13:07.870
If you've got financial strain, if you're upset or fighting with your spouse, it's hard to be soothing for your spouse or children.

00:13:09.070 --> 00:13:12.909
As adults, parents try to make their child feel better.

00:13:13.720 --> 00:13:21.000
You know, the children, their emotional perception of their parents is, I can't predict this person.

00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:36.759
It's not safe for me to share stuff with them. It gets exacerbated in divorce situations with two households where the parents don't get along. Children love both parents and they're very bad at keeping secrets.

00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:40.759
Well, I was just thinking about in my own situation.

00:13:41.320 --> 00:14:13.399
It's interesting how even when their parents have done things that are not safe, the parent that calls, the parent that shows up every week on the phone is the one that's more trusted, even if there was physical abuse involved, because they're, as you said, reliable. It's a very important part. And the other part of that, by. The way, is it sad to me, too? It's the sad part. Here's the sad part. I was just getting to it.

00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:32.200
No matter how bad a child is treated by their parents, they want their parents to be together. You know, it's not until they get older, maybe to the tweens, when they realize, this is not my problem, it's theirs, and I'm tired of it. You know what I mean? And they begin to make their own. Opinions, sometimes quite a bit older.

00:14:33.000 --> 00:15:01.480
Well, yeah. You know, young children are geared to please their parents because when their parents smile at them, they can smile at themselves. It's part of self esteem. Okay? Building steam. But if you've turned to mommy and say, I had a really good time with daddy, and mommy just, you know, she gets upset and says, what? And then she grills him down, what? You can't do this. You dare do that. You know what I mean? That kind of thing. The child realizes, I'm not allowed to love my daddy. Yeah.

00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:26.860
Oh, I remember being so angry whenever my parents said something bad about my dad because I wasn't with my dad for the first Seven years of life. That's what I'm saying. It's very hard to break the child. It's possible to break the child parent bond if you ever do. And this is the toughest therapy that I do once that it takes a lot to break it, but once broken, it's really hard to re establish.

00:15:27.820 --> 00:16:00.120
So what does a parent do that actually breaks that or another parent or grandparent. What is it someone does to a child that can break that? Is it the parent? Yeah, something the parent does? Well, is it something the other parent does? That's a good question. Children, it's called a divided loyalty situation. They have two parents and they're getting two totally different opposite perceptions of what's. Going on, which happens probably quite a bit. Yeah.

00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:19.799
Who do I believe? Who do I defend? Because oftentimes one parent, and I hate to say this, you typically, the mom is saying, look what your dad's doing to me, look what he's doing to us. Look, you know, and so the child in order again, because the child needs the parent to be okay if they're going to be okay. That's true.

00:16:20.919 --> 00:16:23.559
They will defend mom against dad.

00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:34.919
You see, and children think in black and white terms, you know, they don't see the gray zone, you know, that most of us as adults have. Yeah. Because that's based on experience.

00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:46.279
This is better than this and not worse than that. Right. And so they feel they need to take a side. And I've been in sessions where this young girl was ready to hit her father.

00:16:46.679 --> 00:17:01.080
Just this one case was so bad and I couldn't believe this, mom was alienating the kids from the dead so bad that they actually put mom in jail because it was so bad what she was doing to her kids. She was hurting them so badly. Oh, yeah.

00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:09.079
You know, she was very good at it too. She happened to be a borderline personality and she was very, very good at manipulating these children.

00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:16.839
And the court finally saw it. I was involved in the case and we warned her, you keep, you're going to lose custody of your children totally.

00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:20.039
Right. It's very rare to lose total custody, but she did.

00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:50.250
So what in those cases do you do to help rebuild the connection with the other parent after that's been broken? Well, this is. Is it a complicated, long process? It is. It's a, it's certainly a process. The complication, which is a good insight is the fact that they're still allied with the alienating parent. And they, you know, you as a therapist now represent, you know, you're hurting My mom. Interesting.

00:17:50.970 --> 00:18:17.240
So to start the therapy, you've got to deal with that first, you know. So you've been court ordered in that. I'll just take a scenario. You've been court ordered in that situation to work with that child who. Who they feel you're a bad guy because you're trying to support the parent that they've broken the relationship with. You're trying to rebuild connection.

00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.319
Yeah, well, I'm trying to rebuild a connection with the alienated parent.

00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:28.359
Tough place for you to be. Well, it is. A lot of it is because the alienating parent's still out there.

00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:37.960
They're still alienating. The courts are very loathe to take away all visitation.

00:18:39.299 --> 00:18:46.180
Sometimes I shoot for supervised visitation so the parent can't headmount the other parent. I've been on that side.

00:18:47.460 --> 00:18:51.059
That's a medium ground, but that's hard to get.

00:18:51.779 --> 00:19:10.029
I have to start where the child is at. Depends on the age of the child. Don't get into too much complication here. But I start with him saying, you don't want to. My guess is you think that I'm one of the people that's made them tough for you. Is that close. And get them talking about that.

00:19:10.670 --> 00:19:28.670
Yeah, you're an ass. You did this and you were part of that. And tell me how I was an ass. I got to get them talking. Therapy, soothing presence for them with them saying, no wonder you feel that way more. You know, when they're teenagers, I can finally get them to the point.

00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.599
Because teenagers are no longer geared to please their parents.

00:19:32.920 --> 00:21:02.490
They're geared to please themselves and their peers. Right. We're a pain in the neck as parents, but that's an advantage because they have their own opinions. What do you make of what your mom said? Has your dad ever did what your mom says she's doing? Tell me how that has. How would you have handled it differently if you were your mom? You see, and they want to have an opinion. And the fact that you can think it through that way when they come up. Well, not. Shouldn't have done that. Because they finally come to that realization based on their experience. Not when I'm lecturing them, but based on their own experiences or what their. Told them, that was bad. Right. You know, when they judge their father being a parent, their own merit, all of a sudden it's the basis of therapy to tell you the truth. Or when somebody feels truly heard and understood, that gives them hope that things can be better. And that's what I'm trying to create with this child. Eventually they say, can you talk to my dad about this or my mom about that? It takes weeks and weeks and weeks of therapy because I have to be predictable, and I have to be soothing, and I have to accept what they have to say. I have to accept their anger at me until they realize, hey, you know, this guy's pretty cool. He's not trying to just, you know, I'm not defending myself, saying, well, your mom did this. And that's why I said that that's the case of death, because I'm just feeding right into that divided loyalty situation, you know, and that's. That doesn't help.

00:21:03.930 --> 00:21:14.970
My guess is you've handled a lot of these types of cases. I fell into it. I wanted to advocate for children, and this is what happens. The courts, oh, wow, we've got a resource.

00:21:14.970 --> 00:21:27.400
I've done quite a few of these cases, and I'm not going to tell you I enjoyed them. And I'm not going to tell you that I was successful 100% of the time or even 50% of the time, because there's that parent out there sabotaging the therapy.

00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:43.720
I must believe that you think of how many children you've helped doing what you do. Well, I've been in practice for 40 years, almost 41. Been doing this work for most of that time.

00:21:45.059 --> 00:22:07.779
I turn to parents. They say, you have three children. I've seen probably 2,000 now. Certainly not all of them are like this in private practice. But when I see them, I try to help them understand what's going on with their communication. But I got to get them involved first, and I got to get them out of the court thing first, because as long as that's hanging over their head, it's really very stressful.

00:22:08.099 --> 00:22:32.589
So I try to. Yeah, go ahead, finish what you're saying. Well, we have to establish predictability. Again, it has to be a predictable visitation schedule. It's got to be predictable time, predictable communication between the parents, which is why the family wizard's a good idea. You know what I mean? If they can't talk directly, you got to get the children out of the middle of being the messenger. Tell your dad this and don't tell your mom that.

00:22:33.230 --> 00:22:57.349
Children are lousy at that, and it puts a lot of stress on them. They're not meant to keep secrets. We got to get them out of the role of being the appeaser in order to make, you know, this is. Younger children need their parents to be okay, so they'll do that kind of stuff. It's not letting them become themselves. And I've seen people who have gone through that as a child. I'm thinking of one young man in particular I saw when he was 10. Had to play the role of the appeaser.

00:22:57.829 --> 00:23:43.079
He came to me back when he was 28 because he was depressed and he felt empty. There's something called empty depression. I don't know if you ever heard the term, but any. In any case, I haven't. But he was involved with a very demanding girlfriend. You know, he was feeling depressed and empty because he was falling back into that same role of appeasing. He was used to playing the role, you know. And once I had the notes from when he was 10 years old, so I went back and we discussed. He went, you're right, Dr. Marcus, you're right. I didn't realize it because it's like. In there, the damage we do. Don't you think parents could have that playback of what their child might do as a result of these mistakes?

00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:48.720
Would it hurt a little more? Mean a little more? Let me finish with this young man. That's a good question.

00:23:51.039 --> 00:24:01.369
He left that girlfriend. I said she was very demanded. He got into his own passions and stuff like that to define himself.

00:24:02.170 --> 00:24:20.930
Had his network of friends, he had a good job, he was an accomplished young man. He met another woman, much kinder, who's kind, you know, and he did. And they're now married. Have a child in a house. It worked nicely. Calls me up and sends Christmas cards and stuff like that. Thank you so much, doctor. Wonderful. Yeah.

00:24:21.089 --> 00:25:15.200
Do you have many stories like that of people that I have a few, you know. Yeah. A young man who was short and squatting, horn wearing glasses. And he was 10. He was kind of overweight, very smart, smart ass. And he wasn't. He wasn't very popular. And his mom was concerned about him because he didn't have any friends and stuff. I worked with him for about two years and his family too because the parents didn't get along well and they didn't know how to communicate with him. I taught them how to and it helped and he began to mature. That helped a lot. Back to two years, he was about 12, doing a lot better. He has friends and school was fine. Six years later, I'm at my office, I hear the door, my waiting room. Who's that? I don't have a plumber. And in walks this tall kid, 18, long hair. And the only reason I recognized he was spinning. The only reason I recognized him, he. Had the same S's I went, hi.

00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:41.349
He says, Dr. Marcus, I just want to. This happens, you know, they want to just check to see if I'm still around. That's really, really what it is. And hi, how you doing? I won't say his name, but good to see you. He says, I just wanted you to know that I'm heading off to college. I got into Northwestern, which is quite a school, and I'm going to be studying psychology. What a wonderful thing to hear. Yeah. From it.

00:25:41.910 --> 00:25:59.190
And you know, these people in our past as children, despite all the awful things that happened to us, those bright lights are just being one bright light to one child. It's why we do what we do. That's right. It's so rewarding.

00:26:00.549 --> 00:26:33.579
Tell our grandparents, when we're involved in these complicated high conflict situations, which most of us are, because that's the reason the kids are with us, what are some things to keep in the forefront of our minds as we're helping them and as we're dealing with these kids that many of them are involved with drugs or alcohol or they're just dysfunctional in some way and can't care for these children. What mistakes can you help us avoid?

00:26:34.859 --> 00:26:42.299
Okay, that's a loaded question. I'm trying to distill it down, not into, you know, it's a two hour question.

00:26:42.299 --> 00:27:01.299
You know what I mean? Yeah, I know, I know. I got it. The circumstances varies so much in the time we have. Tell me some top points, maybe we'll have another podcast. I mentioned. The most important one is to be predictable. Set up a predictable, soothing environment for that child where you're. They can depend on you.

00:27:02.180 --> 00:27:27.710
Difficulty even with that, they're not going to trust it, certainly not at first, because they don't, you know, how much. Time would you say on average it takes for them to be in a predictable, safe environment like that before they begin to trust again? That depends on the age of the child. Okay. Really, if you get a child early on, like, they haven't built up this bad emotional perception of important people in their lives.

00:27:28.430 --> 00:27:47.869
Oftentimes grandparents, if they are allowed to be involved with young children's lives, they're already a soothing presence for the child, you see? So sometimes the transition is not so bad and that's good. What if they're six? Okay, at six, they may have some, you know, trust issues, like I said.

00:27:48.589 --> 00:28:05.650
Now, it depends on how bad the abuse and neglect has been, you know, because children in those circumstances become what's called hypervigilant.

00:28:06.690 --> 00:28:08.930
All right? And this is something you can expect.

00:28:10.289 --> 00:28:40.829
This is why they may need therapy to tell you the truth. All right. In an unpredictable environment, the child can't know how parents are going to respond. Especially in an alcoholic or drug ridden home where it's very hard to predict the mood that the parent's going to be in. So they don't have much trust to establish that trust. Of course, I said you need to be predictable. But beyond that, they're going to test it to see if you really are predicted.

00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:44.680
And how do we react to that? What's the best way to react? Okay.

00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:59.079
Again, it depends on the age of the child. If the child has an emotional language. But let's assume they're like seven or eight and they already have a language, which is actually a big assumption to make in these families because oftentimes they don't. They just. They're social behind.

00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:31.690
Yeah, developmentally wise. Yeah, they are. And so what I'm saying is I'm going to have to back up a little bit because most of the time they don't have it. All right. It goes back to the basic thing. You know, when young children don't have an emotional language that develops through usage with their parents. Typically, where you develop a language that uses emotional words. How many times have you heard somebody turn to their four or five year olds who's just hit their brother and say, I told you to use your. Words over and over? I still do.

00:29:32.339 --> 00:31:04.859
Well, it's such. Because, you know, it's been three and a half years. One of the things that's in my book. But it's true, it's hella. Can you give us the name of your book? Soon I will develop a common emotional language with your child starting very early on. Okay, this is what needs to happen. This is what I've had to do with the children that I've seen who don't have an emotional language. All right. Parents often make a very big assumption that's typically wrong, which is, well, my child's bright, he's got a good vocabulary, therefore he has an emotional language. No, it's a totally other skill. It develops through having a soothing presence who actually elicits the words and helps you find words in common that have the same meaning to you as they have to the child. I see. Young children don't have that. So they act on their emotions behaviorally. They'll throw a tantrum, hit their brother, do whatever. And oftentimes what adults do is simply correct the behavior. You know, they time them out or something like that, you know, with the assumption that if I just do this, they'll learn their lesson. Strict behavior modification doesn't work. True. In this case, it doesn't work. You know, and the reason it doesn't work. And I have a whole chapter just on the difference between punishment and discipline. They're not the same. It doesn't work because you're not taking into account the child's perception of what you're doing. You're assuming that they're going, the message is, don't do it again and do this instead.

00:31:06.299 --> 00:31:09.980
What are they thinking? They may be thinking, you're just like my mom.

00:31:09.980 --> 00:31:12.460
You're just as mean as my mom. You know, and you see what I mean.

00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:20.390
And you don't see it because you're not eliciting it. You're just assuming that changing the behavior is going to change how they feel.

00:31:20.869 --> 00:31:58.089
No, that's powerful. No, it doesn't work. It's important to understand. Yeah. You know, the other thing that parents assume is that what anger means to them is what anger means to their child. Again, it's a difference in language. Why? Well, your anger is based on your experiences. And they have a totally different set of experiences. They may not explain it the same way. So a better way to respond for a child like that is somehow to respond in a soothing way. You say, because that's okay. The therapeutic to become. Let's just say it's against the person.

00:31:58.170 --> 00:32:17.119
You're so mean or something. You know, typical kind of stuff. Let's just use a simple example. Typically, as human beings, we want to defend ourselves. I mean. What do you mean? I mean, you know, like Dan, maybe me, you know, I mean, you see what I'm getting at. If you gets nasty. But in any way, it's human.

00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:24.480
Rather than do that, the therapeutic response, which is the only phrase I could come up with, is to take responsibility.

00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:27.599
Something that I've done makes you feel that I'm mean.

00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:32.400
Tell me about my being mean using the same words as them.

00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:36.880
Why? Now? Here's a big explanation. Why do you think?

00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:54.650
No, I didn't say that. Because there's nuance involved. When I. In my book, I have parents says, child says, parents says, child says, because you got to be careful as that's how you frame these things. Okay. For instance, you never ask the question, why? Why do you feel that way?

00:32:55.609 --> 00:33:02.329
Well, I'll tell you how come. Because this is important. And I'll get on to what we were talking about there. I've got to read your book.

00:33:03.369 --> 00:33:10.779
You're right. This is how young children and even older children sometimes interpret the why question?

00:33:10.779 --> 00:33:14.259
It's the most common question we ask. Right. Why'd you do that?

00:33:14.819 --> 00:33:35.390
Yeah. Why do you feel that way? Picture the scenario. You know they've done something wrong and you're upset with them, and they know it. They can always tell. Children are exquisitely aware of how you feel, no matter how much you try to hide it. You pick up an infant, if you're tense, they cry. I mean, it's right from birth, you know, so. Right. So they know you're upset with them. So this is how the question is interpreted.

00:33:35.549 --> 00:33:44.829
I am upset with you. Give me a totally logical explanation for this totally illogical thing that you just did so that I feel better about you.

00:33:46.589 --> 00:33:48.750
I challenged some adults to answer that question.

00:33:50.990 --> 00:34:33.360
So what do you get over there? I don't know. Or some type of, you know, the subject. Or you get defensive anger, and so they turn it back on you. Now you feel like I have to defend yourself. You see what I mean? And so these are all ways that children have to, you know, try to cope with. You got to understand that there's an offensiveness in these children, has a very good purpose. Okay? These children are very defensive. You know, they don't trust the purpose of the defense is no matter how bad the consequences are of using that defense, whether they deny it, whether they blame somebody else, you know, whatever it might be, it still feels better than the feeling they'd have if they admitted it.

00:34:35.119 --> 00:34:45.760
Because when they admitted it before, they got powerful, nailed. When they've admitted it before, they got nailed, no matter what powerful.

00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:57.239
You see what I mean? You have to. What's called, what I call recruit the defense. There's a reason why I'm actually sure I've done something that says, don't talk to me.

00:34:57.559 --> 00:35:00.920
Don't talk to Grandma. What might that be?

00:35:02.360 --> 00:35:20.610
Now, with older children, they may tell you, and the reason I'm putting it that way, that's the therapeutic part of that phrase. That's why I changed. What you said is that you're admitting you've done something which lets them off the hook. They don't have to defend what their perception is.

00:35:20.849 --> 00:35:27.650
You're always saying, I must be doing something that feels. You may not agree with their perception at the end, but at least you've heard it.

00:35:27.969 --> 00:35:37.409
And they feel you've heard it because you're mirroring back and you say, oh, because you feel, I did this, I did that, I did this, and mom said that about me, and dad said this about Me.

00:35:38.289 --> 00:35:45.969
And then you validate just the perception, not that you agree based on how you see it. No wonder you feel that way about me.

00:35:47.489 --> 00:36:11.090
Now you've done something called emptying out, which is a whole thing I'd have to talk to you about probably at a different time, because that's another conversation. Yeah, but now they know you understand. The basis of any therapeutic interaction, and this is therapeutic parenting, obviously, is when somebody feels truly heard and understood. That gives them the hope that things can be better.

00:36:13.809 --> 00:36:17.610
Grandma's pretty cool. Yeah, she, she didn't tell me I was wrong, you know.

00:36:17.610 --> 00:36:46.260
Yes, yes. Sometimes I probably do that. Or do you do this? And oftentimes they're right. Because some of the things that parents do that makes it unsafe for children to talk to them about how they feel are very subtle. Some are very obvious. You get angry at them, you get defensive. You know, that's a, that's a no brainer. No wonder the child doesn't want to talk to you. They're now anticipating they're just going to read them the riot act, you know what I mean? But there's some subtleties, like with young children. Oh, I'll just redirect them.

00:36:47.940 --> 00:37:23.309
And you can, but it doesn't solve the thing and it stops the emptying out process. All right. Or you put your own words to it. Well, that stops them emptying out too. They're not using their language. The worst, the worst one. And this is going to sound very radical coming from a child family therapist. I hate the phrase make feel better because how do we try to make our kids feel better? We direct them. We make a joke out of what they're saying. We'll say, oh, I went through that too, and this is what I did. If you just do this, you'll feel all better.

00:37:23.789 --> 00:37:38.369
All of those cut into this process of getting them to take it from in here and out here with words and you can help them to learn how to do that. All of that interferes with it. And yet the parents intent is good. They just want their child to feel better.

00:37:38.849 --> 00:37:59.969
But okay, Laura, if you turn to somebody and you have had something heavy on your heart and you began to explain it to them and they went, you know, five minutes of it, they say, oh, I know just how you feel. I went through it too. And this is what I did, and this is what you're already shaking your head because, you know, is that going to be helpful?

00:38:00.849 --> 00:39:49.690
No. Right. If it was a good friend, you might say something like, just hear me out, because that's what we need to get it from in here to out here where we can look at it. You know, if it wasn't a good friend, you'd say thank you and go find a good friend. And we do this with our children all the time. The only difference is is you're big and they're little and not going to. You really expect your 5 year old to turn and say, mom, just shut up and listen. I mean, they're not going to do that. They'll just sit there and go. And you think the parent thinks that it's all solved because the child's quiet until three days later when they're picked on again on the bus and they're just as upset as they were three days ago. I thought we talked about this. No, you didn't. You're saying that by validating their feelings that we are being a soothing presence for them to be able to share their feelings, empty out their emotions once they're emptied out. You can even disagree with them based on how you see it. No wonder you feel the way you do. Notice the qualifier here based on how you see it, because you may see it differently, but you now listen to them. You've given them something that's very important for all of us. You've shown them respect by listening to them, taking them seriously. Once you say okay at the end, they listen to you. Now they're in the place where they can listen to you because you listen to them and you're still calm, you're not upset about it. And that builds the trust. And then the last phase is okay, what can we do about this now? Notice the we, not what you gonna do. We. We is called a merger. I'm in it with you.

00:39:51.610 --> 00:39:55.289
See how powerful that can be? I'm not acknowledging it.

00:39:55.369 --> 00:40:42.389
Let's see what we can do. Now you're being the emotional support person. You're now now your grandma. Now you're the person they can turn to, the safe person. But with children who have little trust, it's going to take a while. They're going to test it to act out, to see if you're still there for them, a soothing presence for them. Difficult. It's very difficult. I can understand with your experience and having had this conversation, why you're so respected in both the fields of parent child communication and child advocacy. I would love to talk more about this specific process and how we can help rebuild the trust for these kids, because I think that's the most important thing.

00:40:42.469 --> 00:41:13.670
We all have our issues. We don't do everything perfectly. But if that is the main factor in helping these kids go on to live their own normal, healthy lives and not pass on mental illness, so to speak, to. To their spouses and their kids, then really we're doing our job, the most important job. We're finishing up here, getting close to finishing up. Is that close, Laura? That's fine.

00:41:14.869 --> 00:41:33.519
Close. Yeah. We've got to take another. I think our listeners may have their ears full at this point. I got a big mouth, everybody out there. I'm sorry. You and I are both passionate about the subject, and there's nothing wrong with that. But how do we wrap this up?

00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:43.360
David? Okay, I want to share with your listeners this really important thing. One of the things. There's a process called internalization.

00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:51.920
Internalization is like subliminal learning things you take in below your level of awareness. Okay.

00:41:53.199 --> 00:42:03.840
And one of the things that we take in subliminally internalize, that parents show their children is how to react to stress.

00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:58.659
So if their model is my parents go crazy and do drugs or get drunk, or their model is my father hits me when he's stressed, that gets in there. Yeah. And they repeat the pattern. This is why abused children can often become abusive parents, sadly, because under stress, we regress back to these internalized responses. They'll swear up and down and sideways. And then also, I will never do to my child what happened to me. But at that moment, they do it, you see, it gets passed on. The nice thing I'm trying to share with your folks, that if you're a soothing presence that gets internalized, that makes your child resilient because they have a way of coping with their emotions.

00:42:59.940 --> 00:43:06.980
It's called resilience in children. And guess what it's called when we get grown up as adults? Stress tolerance.

00:43:08.900 --> 00:43:15.659
Stress tolerance. We know stress tolerance is certainly a major part of maturation, right?

00:43:16.139 --> 00:43:35.179
Yeah. That's what I'm going to leave your people with. You can make it up. You can be a soothing presence and have that child take that in and be. That's where they go to, rather than, you know, to being beat or something like that a lot. But that means being a soothing presence for years. You know, I mean, it's. It's being.

00:43:35.260 --> 00:43:39.070
That's your role, in other words. So that's the hopeful part of it.

00:43:39.219 --> 00:43:43.059
The most important one. That's what I wanted to share with you folks.

00:43:43.380 --> 00:44:55.539
The emptying out process is another conversation. It's an important one, too. The very thumbnail part of that, because there's a lot to that share with. The listeners your website and I will also put a link in the show. Notes my website is parentrx1word p a r e n t r x.org they can contact me if they wish to talk to me at it's in the website but my email address is D S M A R c u s PhD@parentrx.org and I'll give you the title of the book. Hopefully you'll be out within a year and I always have to look it up because it was such a long title that my agent came up with and I never can remember exactly what that okay, here it is. ParentRx prescriptive wisdom tips and strategies for communication with your child. And hopefully that'll be out here. And yeah, we can have another conversation if you wish too. About there's more, a lot more to this book. Can I tell you? I'd love to.

00:44:55.619 --> 00:44:58.980
And about music, you want to share that too?

00:44:59.139 --> 00:45:37.510
If you want to tell your audience before we got started we found out we were both musicians. If you go to my website, there's a link to a CD of Celtic music that I made some years ago on the guitar. It's got flutes, got wood flutes. It's really interesting basses and they're all my own arrangements and that's my passion is playing music. The guitar, the mandolin, banjo. Yeah, and if you're it's not on the website, but I also do musicals but I won't get into that. Well, but if you want to leave a greater legacy for your grandchildren and you love music, go to parentrx.com thanks for having me.

00:45:38.949 --> 00:45:46.949
I don't know about you, but I found this conversation with Dr. David Marcus has given me so much to reflect on. I hope it has you.

00:45:47.269 --> 00:45:54.550
We've learned that our most important job is to be predictable, a soothing presence, someone who's okay when our child is not.

00:45:54.789 --> 00:46:35.389
This simple act of listening without trying to make it better is the foundation of trust, resilience and a lifetime of emotional health for our children. What resonated most with you from this episode? I'd love to hear from you. Are you inspired to try a new way of listening or to avoid the question why? Now it's your turn to engage. Share your thoughts and reflections with us on our social media channels. And please, please, please if you know another grandparent who is navigating a high conflict situation or struggling with communication, please share this episode with them. Together we can help build a new hopeful legacy for our grandchildren.

00:46:36.349 --> 00:46:54.349
Next week. Dyslexia as a Superpower with Russell Van Broecklin as we continue to navigate the complexities of our children's emotional health, it's just as vital to support their academic journey. But what if your grandchild's struggle with reading or writing isn't a problem, but a superpower in disguise?

00:46:55.420 --> 00:47:16.860
Next Week on episode 85, we're welcoming Russell Van Broecklin, the dyslexia professor who's on a mission to re educate the world on what dyslexia truly is. As a young man with severe dyslexia, Russell learned firsthand that it's a thinking speed issue. And when that speed is channeled correctly, it becomes a launchpad for success.

00:47:17.820 --> 00:47:40.409
Join us as Russell shares his personal story and reveals low cost, easy strategies that grandparents can use to help their grandchildren. We'll learn about the two simple questions that can screen for dyslexia in minutes and how to turn a child's passion into a powerful learning tool. Be sure to tune in and discover how to unlock your grandchild's hidden potential.

00:47:41.610 --> 00:47:44.889
Thank you for tuning in to grandparents raising grandchildren.

00:47:45.210 --> 00:47:55.150
Nurturing Through Adversity Remember, you are not alone. Together we can find strength and hope in the face of adversity.

00:47:56.510 --> 00:48:06.269
Peace be with you, and I pray that you find some time this week to listen to your inner wisdom amongst the noise and the pandemonium of this world.